103 - Lucy
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Well, hello and welcome. My episode today is recorded with a dear friend, Lucy Gough. Lucy is an interior stylist. She's the author of The Home Style Handbook, which is a fabulous book. And she's the founder of the Interior Styling School, where around 3,000 students from 28 countries have learned to style their homes and build careers as stylists.
After 15 years styling for magazines and brands in London, she's back in Sydney now with her wife and two boys. And today we talk about following a creative pull, building something steady underneath it, and what it takes to feel at home in two places at once. I really enjoyed our chat, so I hope you do too.
Hi, Lucy Hi, how are you? I'm really good. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's a pleasure. I'm so pleased we got to do this. We've been meaning to do it for years literally. Yes, we have. Um, the main reason...
No, no. And the main reason I wanted to get you on is because I just think what you do is so cool, but also you are so cool in the way that you do it. Oh. So I really want people to hear all about your story. So start by saying where you are, and what you love to do. Oh, thank you. Okay. So
I am an interior stylist. That's kind of the umbrella term for what I do. But I am an author. I've written The Home Style Handbook. I'm the founder of the interiorstylingschool.com where I have many students around the world. And I, I teach them how to style their home and how to become a stylist and give them the tools and techniques that they need to do that.
And I have students in 28 countries, and I think there's about 3,000 students now that have been through the school. So I feel very proud of that. And I'm currently living in Sydney. I've been back here now for almost five years with my wife and two boys. I am Australian, but I lived in London for 15 years, and that's where I learnt everything to do with styling.
And then we moved back around COVID time, like a lot of people did to see if it worked for us as a family. And now we've been here, yeah, five years next month. And Christina, my wife, became an Australian yesterday. Congratulations to her. She- That's so cool. Thank you. Yeah. I bet she never planned to do that in her- Never in a million years
wildest dreams. Yeah. No. But she's a dual citizen. She's not, she's not just an Aussie. She's obviously a dual citizen. Oh. Very much British, born and bred Londoner. Yeah. But she's very lucky that she now has both, that's amazing. I'm married to one like that too. Same. A very British Australian. Yeah. So I wanna know a little bit about the history.
So, so how did you come to do what you do now? Give me the long version. Sure. Well, I worked in book publishing here in Sydney. And I was... I used to, you know, like, as a lot of people do, we sit at our desk for eight hours a day. And you know, I sat with a big partition around me between me and the next person, this big blue felt wall, very ugly and uninspiring.
But I used to just create mood boards on the walls, um, because I just always thought, "I've gotta look at this wall for eight hours a day plus." And I'd collect postcards and magazine things I'd ripped out, ribbons, whatever. And I didn't think anything of it apart from the fact that I was making a lovely space.
... And a colleague came up to me and she said, "You're really good at-" this, you know? You should become a stylist." And, and I said, "I, I don't know what a stylist is." And she told me, and she said, "Well, you would do that. You'd get paid- Mm ... to do that and make things look good." And, um- Wow ... anyway, it was a whole new world for me.
But then I met my wife. She worked for the same publishing company, but for the UK office. And she came over for a week for a sales conference. We met, we connected, we fell in love within a very short period of time. And and then I moved- That was a, that was a surprise, wasn't it, for you? Like, that was a- That was a surprise.
Yeah. Well, I was engaged to a man at the time. Yeah. So it was definitely a surprise. I just love that so much. True love will- Um- ... cross all barriers- And- ... even gender barriers. Absolutely. Completely. Mm. Yes. And so I moved to London for love, and I thought, "Well, I'm in a new city, new country I should start a new career."
So I decided to become a stylist And and I just had a series of lucky breaks really. Obviously I'm passionate and I like to manifest things. I've always had a vision board, always kind of really put a lot of energy into the thing that I really want. But I emailed a magazine, I think it was World of Interiors magazine.
Anyone who's in the interiors world or magazine world will know World of Interiors because it's loved all around the world. It's quite a niche magazine, but it's, it's a beautiful one. And, um, I emailed them and just asked if I could come in and do some work experience, and they emailed me back straight away saying, "Well, actually there was a person who was starting tomorrow and they've pulled out.
So if you'd like to come in tomorrow you can." Oh my gosh. And, um, so it was pretty immediate. It was right in there. It wasn't an unpaid thing. It was two weeks free for, you know, I, I'd never- Incredible ... been in a magazine office or anything. Actually that's a lie. I did actually work for a magazine in Australia, but it was in the marketing department, so it was very different- Right
to working editorially with the beautiful fabric swatches and all the creative stuff. Yeah. Um, and, uh, and so yeah, basically I, I was there and then I went to another mag and another mag, and then eventually I got a full-time position at Living Etc magazine, which is where I spent a good few years and really learnt how to be a stylist.
It's a pretty full on few years, as you can imagine, the editorial world back when magazines were still- Yeah ... amazing. And I loved it and- Mm ... still some of my, most of my best friends today are from the magazine. We're all still very, very close. Um- That's amazing ... and, and yeah, just had the best time.
And then from the magazine, I, I became a freelance stylist, so therefore I started working with... It's still the same now. Whoever lands in my inbox, I work with them. Yeah. And so when it was the UK I was working with John Lewis and Marks & Spencer and Heal's- Mm ... and Habitat and Argos and, I don't know- Big brands
lots of independent companies as well, small brands. Yeah. I mean, whoever, whoever it was, and just had a wonderful time. And then since moving back to Australia again, working with lots of different furniture brands and and really what I do for them is I create imagery for their brand. I help them create their brand and/or create- Mm
seasonal imagery or, help them, you know, create content for their social media or, you know. A- and a lot of it's changing with AI naturally. Yeah. But image creation is still happening with stylists and photographers, and long may it continue. Yeah. It's funny 'cause magazines keep coming up for me.
I just watched a documentary series on... I think it was on Disney in Australia called Vogue, In Vogue or Vogue. Mm-hmm. It's about the '90s. Have you watched it? I don't think I have. I think you would really enjoy it. It's basically interviews with Anna Wintour and also heaps of other people that- Mm ... were style icons in the '90s.
So all the supermodels and some of the- Mm ... hip hop artists and, like, it's really cool because it's about magazines, and it's about the changes in culture- Mm ... and magazines as drivers of culture. Because '90s was when it all kinda came together, like film and- Oh ... magazines and- That's a good point ... TV and all kind of became one thing.
Yeah. Whereas before- Yep ... people in publishing were in publishing, people in film were in film, and it was less crossover. And, um- Mm ... it is fascinating the way they talk about it, and these cultural moments. They share cultural moments from the perspectives of the people that were in them. And- Mm ... um, I really admire what you do because I think it's pretty underrated.
I think in this world we are so really inundated with content. Mm. And so truly well-thought-out imagery I think number one, it stands out more, but number two- Mm ... it has a higher value actually than previously because it's not the norm. And- Mm ... um, I've always been a bit of a closet design person. I actually teach-
design thinking in one of the roles as an educator. I teach design, design technology, design thinking, you know, design process. Mm-hmm. And I always thought I'd be a graphic designer, so I have this kind of reverence for designers because I'm not one, and I sort of always thought I would be, right? But I think- Mm
we kind of all are designers. I think particularly people like us who, who yearn for a life that includes creativity and authenticity, which I think, you know, you were yearning for in your cubicle. Yes. Those of us that feel like that, especially as women who don't always get to be all of who we are.
When we do find ways to express who we are authentically, it's extremely powerful. Mm. So I think I have a great respect for you. What did you think happened for you personally when you started changing and living a life that was more aligned with your creative self or more aligned with what you truly loved and were passionate about?
What did you notice? Oh. I mean- I was, Christina and I were only saying the other day, "Do you remember how much fun we used to have?" You know, it was fun. It was all the, all the projects I worked on just, I don't know, unlocked a little, another piece of me every time I do another shoot. And I think sometimes you, you don't s- you can't start out knowing what your style is.
Mm. You have to, you just have to work at it. And when I say work at it, I mean you just have to do more jobs and more work and more work, and eventually you look back on your work and you think, "Okay, this is who I am. This is my style." Yeah. A brand can hire me to create something in their house style, and I can do that.
But if somebody just says to me, "You can go for it. Do what you like," then that's when I- Yeah, that's fun ... put my own, stamp on it. And, um, and yeah, I think I just really started to recognize that I, I have my own style and it's, it's pared back. It's strong colors. Actually, that's been an interesting challenge moving back to Australia is that a lot of- Yeah
imagery and a lot of it, things in the styling world in Australia are very muted. And lots of, pale colors- I agree ... and creams and whites and neutrals. And and when I first got back, I, I didn't have a network, so I got a, an agent to work on behalf of me. And she was looking through my portfolio and she said, "Gosh, you know, you really do have some beautiful work, but it's just not white enough."
We're gonna have to change that. That's so funny. And- Yeah. I really noticed this the other day. There's a new show on TV, again, TV show, but about interiors- Mm ... and it shows, like Madonna's home or like sty- people who are stylists, their homes. And the col- like, particularly in England, they're both in London, these two places, the color and the textures- Yeah
and the richness- Mm ... so much more People are, people are much more confident about putting a more saturated color palette in their home in the UK, for sure. Yeah. Um, I do think it probably stems from the light being more dull outside, natural light- I think so too. Mm-hmm ... so they wanna bring the energy inside.
Where I suppose in Australia we have such bright light, um- Yes ... that, you know, I suppose that plays into it, and we're happier to have a more muted color palette, 'cause as soon as we open our door in Australia and we're out there, we get the flash of blue from the sky, and we get the green from the trees.
My mother-in-law when she came over, she's lived in the UK for 50 years. She's originally from Macedonia. Mm. We brought her over, and she just kept saying, "The trees, the trees. Oh, my goodness." Yeah. The trees. She must have said it 50 times a day. She just kept saying, "The trees are amazing. The trees are amazing."
Yeah. Um, you know, the size and the color and the scale and- It's true. But- When you go to London, there is a more muted palette, just generally. You look around, it's gray. Outdoors, yes. It's pastels. It's outdoors. Yeah. Yeah. The natural palette of the place is less- And then you go inside- ... dramatic and colorful.
Yes ... and people have really brought that color in. Yeah. And it's great. I love it. It's true. Yeah. They're really confident with color. Um- Yes ... and so I still try to bring color into my clients' places here, but it's- Yeah ... in a more muted way Boring. No, not boring. But I know what you mean. I'm actually- Well, I mean, I, I personally still really love a sage green, and I love a pastel pink, and I love to go- Yes
pastels and terracottas. So you can still get really- Yes ... beautiful color in there, just, just not super bright. Yeah. It's interesting. I've started to... It's taken me three years in our place now, and I've just started to bring color in, and it's been really interesting, 'cause I think I was hesitating a bit at first, and not sure what colors I wanted and, you know, a little bit like that.
And also, I do think it's emotional. Like- Sure. Sure ... I was also in a stage of sort of quiet building. So I was wearing more black. Now I'll hold this jacket up for anyone watching. This is my winter jacket. You know, like it's full- Love it ... of colors and textures and... yeah. So I think I have changed a little bit personally, and that's now starting to seep out into the environment.
There's more colors on the wall. I just did a collage of CD covers, 'cause I was gonna throw away my CDs, and there's so much amazing artwork. Oh, love that. And it looks so great. Yeah. You know, but that's super colorful. So I think as maybe as we develop as people, we change as well
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And, uh, and I'm curious, how you describe your personal style in terms of...
Do you think it's, you could give it a few more words? You did say a little bit, but can you give me some more words about it? I mean, if I look at my portfolio en masse, the things that stand out to me are the fact that everything's pared back. It's, nothing's too full. There's, there's always a color on the wall.
Very rarely have a plain white wall. They have their place, don't get me wrong. But I very rarely have white in my portfolio. I would also classify a very muted I don't know, pastel kind of tutty colors and pa- pastel terra cotta. They, they, they are colors even though they're very muted. Um- Yeah
I would even call- Absolutely ... I would even say cream is more interesting than white. I just would never really use a white. Yeah. I might use, warm cream or something. Um- I like it as a highlight. I like white as a highlight, like a tile- Yeah ... maybe here or there, but yeah. As its own color in a way.
But the thing I love about really pale colors, like through this, through the camera, your background, to me- Mm ... that's regis- registering as a pale sage green. I don't know if it actually is, but, um- Yeah, it's kind of an eggy cream. It's like an eggshell. Yeah. Mm. But when you paint a pale color on all your walls, you don't notice it.
People are so worried- That's true ... that they're gonna have green walls, but if every single wall is that very pale color- Yeah, that's true ... it just registers as a warmth. Not, not... Your brain doesn't go, "Oh my God," That's true ... "This wall is green." Because- When I've seen your styled images, I also notice there's definitely that old European English country influence.
Like, I do see some of those classic textures, some of the wallpapers you use, and I see, like, when some of the artifacts that you put in or the items that you put in, there's that definite English European influence. Which I like. Definitely. I, I love- I struggle a bit with that- You know ... but I like how it looks.
I do think that you have to be sympathetic to the period of the home that you're living in. Yeah, of course. Um- That's it. I'm so mid-century in my home ... and I think I always... Yeah. And that, yeah, absolutely, you have to do that for your place. Absolutely. But you know, I, I suppose I aspire to live in a traditional period home, so I always try to put that in- Yeah
you know, whenever I'm in a project. But yeah, I, I do like layering and I do really love texture. I just- Mm ... I don't like things too plain. But I do like- Mm. I, I really don't like too much clutter. And so- That simplicity as well ... I really try to keep things pared back. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I do see that. So now that we've talked about where you've come from and- Mm
kind of how passionate you are about your visual design elements, I would love to hear a little bit more about what do you say to someone who's feeling a passion towards something? Give, give... Pretend that I am starting my career in some sort of creative industry, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. How do, how do you start?
Like, if you're working full time and that is your money- Mm-hmm ... you know, how do you start? How do you start when you, like, the world is saturated with creativity and design? Oh, yeah. And yeah, so where does that self-belief come from? Look, I think uh, and that was very much me. You know, I was working full time.
I made sure, because I knew I wanted to change my career, I made sure that I saved up money for 12 months- Yeah, self-funded ... before taking the leap. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think yes, I went and moved in with Christina, and she was a safety net for me. Yeah. Um, however, I had my own money, and I made sure- Yeah
that I saved up my own money to, to look after myself. I love that you brought that up- ... because I think a lot of people jump in, and then they go into survival mode and freak out and can't handle it and can't hold it, and it's too much of a risk. Yeah. And that stifles- Yeah ... their business or creative idea.
And I really believe in that. And when I'm mentoring people, I say, "Don't underestimate getting a part-time job to fund your business while it starts." You know, it takes three- But do you know what? Actually that's- ... to five to seven years. For sure. It's a passion project. It's not something- It's a start
that's gonna happen quickly. I've got so much to say about this, I don't even know where to start. But, um- Yeah I, I still speak to creative people now who are well entrenched in their creative careers who are, who are freelance because they want to work with different brands and do their thing.
Yeah. Who, who... And a lot of them have part-time jobs on the side. Yeah. I think the holy grail is, is having-- is being on a retainer with a company and them paying you- Yes ... a little bit every month to do a few days a week for them or, or a day a week or whatever it might be. Um- Mm ... if you can have a, a client as a retainer, that's just...
Or if you can have more than one client on a retainer, that's a wonderful way of- Or creating a- an online course like you have, which is kind of like creating your own retainer. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I, um, I started my online school in 2020 the first night of COVID lockdown because I, I had had a poster on-- a piece of paper on my wall that said, "Create an online course," and I'd had it there for about two years already.
Mm. Um, but I had my babies, I had two children, and it just wasn't happening. And then the first night that Boris Johnson told us not to leave the house, I, um, went out into our garden studio that we'd built 12 months previously. Thank God we'd built it, 'cause we lived in a two- Yeah ... a tiny townhouse- Yeah
With two babies and working and COVID, and it was all a bit crazy. But we had this little garden studio that we'd built in the garden, which was the same size as the garden. There was no real garden left. Wow. Um, but if we hadn't have had that, I don't think I would've- Mm ... created my online school, 'cause I wouldn't have had a space to, to have done that.
Um- And you worked with some big... Like, you worked with The Times, was it, or something? You ran workshops, which also would've helped, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I did a lot- Fantastic ... I mean, it was all-- everything was online, right, for that first- Mm. Mm ... couple of years after COVID. And I launched my school at a time when I don't think that there were any other interior styling schools or...
At that time it was just called Lucy Gough Courses. It wasn't really a school, it was just me- Yeah ... teaching what I knew. And it, it was just right place, right time, and it absolutely- Yeah ... snowballed, and everyone was locked in their homes wanting to know how to style their home, and I was teaching them how to do it.
And so I hadn't- Yeah ... wasn't something I planned, it was just like a, I had the knowledge that people wanted, it was the right time. It'll probably never happen- But you see- ... again in my life ... you say you- But it was amazing ... you did-- you say you didn't plan it, but you had been following your passion for some time.
You had put the intention on the wall. You had- Yeah ... you know, like, you had planted seeds. Yeah. Well, I said to Christina on the sofa, Boris Johnson was on the television, and I turned to Christina and I said- I think it's now that I'm gonna write my course Mm-hmm, yeah Um, because- So that's, that's not nothing, 'cause you felt that mm-hmm And you trusted it Yeah, yeah.
And I, and I, I, I suppose the business person in me thought, "If I don't do this right now, someone else is gonna do it, right?" Yeah. Mm. And so I'd always wanted to do it. I knew I had the knowledge. And I love teaching people how to do things. I always really enjoyed having assistants and interns on my shoot and teaching them how I would do things.
So it was just kind of- Yeah ... turning all that knowledge that I already had into a PowerPoint slide kind of thing. Yeah. But there, you know, it was a lot of new skills. It was learning how to put my thoughts down in a teachable way, you know, that was- Yeah ... cohesive and because it's a bit like a TAFE course or a college course, you know?
These are quite meaty- Mm ... courses I've put together- Mm ... that can take people weeks or months if they wanna take it that long. Um- You could make it a certification, just saying. I reckon it'd be great for that, by the way Yeah. I'll add that to the list. But yes, that is something I would love to do. Yeah. And then it was learning to film myself.
It was learning to- Mm ... um, I don't know. It was things like putting subtitles on videos, and it was learning how to up- you know, cr- use a new piece of software, and it was- Mm ... it was everything. It was marketing something. It was using influencers to push my thing for the first time. Mm. It was, it was, it was a huge learning curve, and I loved it.
I loved every minute of it. It was just this thing that was- Mm ... it was, it felt like I was in the right place at the right time with the right skills, with the right moment, and it was like, yeah. That's a big deal. And, and you know there's intention. There's skill building- Mm ... practicing, doing the thing you love- Mm-hmm
finding out it's a thing you love, pursuing that. There's the- Yeah ... seeing the moment and discerning and trusting your discernment that it's the moment. And, and then there's the taking action in a way that feels- I wanna say effortless. It's not that it's easy, but when you say, "I loved every moment," that sort of speaks- Mm
to the fact that when you are on that sort of right track- Mm ... you can feel it in your bones. Doesn't mean- Absolutely ... there's no challenges, but you know the difference. It feels different. Yep. Yep, yep, I agree. And, um, and it's... A- and I feel like I'm in that moment a little bit at the moment because I've just started- Yeah
a new business called stylingtours.com. Oh, yeah, that looks so cool. Yeah, and a friend of mine who's also a stylist, Jono F- Jono Fleming, he's just gorgeous. We get along so well, and we met a couple of years ago and we had a chat and I said to him, "I've got this online school and I love it, and I'm getting all this feedback from people saying, 'Are you gonna do any in real life stuff?'"
'Cause I wanna- Mm ... be in the same room as me and other people, and we wanna be in gr- Yeah ... you know, groups of women together in a room learning- Yeah ... and having fun. And, and so I thought, "Well, actually, I love people, and I love teaching, and I love being- Yeah ... in the same room as them." And I was like, "Okay, well why don't we start Styling Tours?"
Which is- Mm ... well, we started doing these Sydney Styling Tours, which is a day on foot with a group of people. We start with a workshop, how to style your home, in the morning. We then go on foot to three or four different stores and we do demonstrations on how to style things. People can- Great
purchase things if they like to. We're taking them into retail spaces- Great ... where we would shop ourselves as stylists for our clients. Yeah. And then we have a really beautiful lunch in the middle of the day. And then we- Beautiful ... have another three stops, and then we have another workshop at the end of the day, and a glass of champagne, and we all have a hug, and we have the best day ever.
Um- Oh, that's amazing ... and we, we had this idea at the beginning of the year, and we've just had our third or fourth Styling Tour last week. Um- Mm, they look amazing ... and- I've been watching them just going, "Oh my gosh, I so wanna come." Oh, they, they are just a wonderful thing. Like, I feel really proud- Mm
of them because at the end of the day, everyone is on a bit of a high and we get these- Yeah ... text messages from people saying, "I'm on the bus but I, I wish I was still with everyone." And you know- Aw, it's so cool ... it's, it's just one of those feelgood things. And then so Jono and I are now trying to expand that, and we've just launched- Great
our first three-day Tasmania styling retreat, which is next month. Mm, that looks great. Yeah. And we've still got a few tickets if anyone- Yay ... wants to book. It's, it is... It's going to be the best because the itinerary is- It looks amazing. And look, when you start to do your certifications- Yeah ... and then you're taking like stylists who want to build businesses and stylists who wanna work full time, and you're gonna do retreats for those people, then you can get people like me to come in and help them with the blocks and the wellbeing and the mentorship to build the business, right?
So like, then you can start to hybrid, which will be so exciting. Mm. And tell me that I'm there. I'm in. - Absolutely. Yes ... it sounds amazing. I'm like, I'm gonna leave here with so many ideas and things I wanna implement. Because it is. Um- It's like when you find the thing that you really love, you want other people to find it and love it too, you know?
And that's- Yeah ... that's just part of it- Yeah ... I think. You know? Yeah. And it's not, it doesn't feel to me like it's competitive, and that's very important. Like this is collaborative, and I think a lot of creative and healing industries are- Yeah ... very collaborative. And- It is. Absolutely ... um, it's one of the reasons I work better in creative and healing communities, you know- Mm
because I just think like that. And- Yeah ... I think finding the thing that suits you and your skills and your psyche and your personality, and then being able to run with it, amazing. Yeah. Are you glad that you came back to Australia now? Now, 'cause I know at first, I mean, I used to be at school pickups with you, and- Yeah
at first it wasn't easy, and it's never easy to find your bit- ... in, especially in a creative industry in Australia. I mean, it's pretty cliquey sometimes, or like closed and, and small, yeah. But how are you finding that now? I, I would say I'm happy now, which is lovely. Lovely thing- Yeah, great ... to be able to say.
But it's, it has been a very long journey. I mean, I- Yeah ... I never, ever thought it would be as hard as it's been. Yeah. I really thought that because I've got a personality which is kind of like a go-getter, like I'll just get in there and give it a go- Yeah ... and also, you know, I, I find- You just be resourceful, you'll find a way
yeah. I love networking, I love meeting people, um, I had a good portfolio to, from, from the UK. I just thought- You're lovely to be around ... yeah, surely I'll be fine. Yeah. But no, it wasn't for, for quite a few years. It's tricky, isn't it? Um- It's a challenging thing. But you know- Yeah ... you knew what you needed and you knew what you wanted, and you kinda stuck with it, and I thought, I just really respected you for that.
That's not easy to do, yeah. I mean, we have talked about moving back at least 50 at times. Of course. And I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say that that conversation is off the table either. Sure. Mm. Um, but I think at the moment we've just kind of realized that we've got two lives. You know? I, I go back to- Yeah
London twice a year for work. I still have clients there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Christina works remotely, so she goes back, uh, at least once a year and stays with her family, and so we, we're still very, very connected to- Yeah ... our London life, and- Mm ... I think a big part of my soul is there. Um, and- Yeah, I get that
and I- It's, I went back for the first- Yeah ... time in eight years recently, and I was really like, "Oh my gosh, I love it here." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's a, it, we're very lucky. I mean, we, 20, 2026, we have, a, a lot of us are in fortunate positions that we ha- we can kind of choose what we wanna do.
Um, and- Very privileged, I tell you what. Yeah ... there were lots of families who emigrated in the '40s and '50s who left their home country and never, ever went back. Either- Mm ... they couldn't afford it or 'cause of they, to get back on a ship or whatever it was- Or political ... um- Yeah ... or political or, and, and, and some people have never seen their families in the flesh again, which is wild to me.
Mm. Mm-hmm. And, and I think actually one of the reasons why I've struggled mentally is because- I go back so frequently- Mm ... that I haven't been able to separate myself enough to put the deep roots down. Mm. And I don't think it's a bad thing either. I think I'm very lucky to have these two lives. But I think sometimes maybe if people just move and- Yeah, it forces the investment in that- Just focus on the one territory Yes.
Yes, I understand ... then, does that make sense? So- I think you're just spreading it out. Yeah. I mean, I suppose what I'm trying to say is I'm in a very, very fortunate position to have these two lives. But I think sometimes- Yes ... it can, it can feel like a lot. It is. Well, it is a lot, let's be honest. Yeah.
You're holding, you're holding two very full things, and two rich- Yeah ... relationships, and two places, which means you're never fully in both at the same time. Yeah. They're both your homes. Yeah. And I think that's... I know my son sometimes talks about that culturally, 'cause he was brought up in two completely different cultures.
He's like, "I'm not fully that one and I'm not fully that one, I'm always both." Mm. And it means you're never fully one or the other, you know? And it's the same thing. It's, it's tricky. I feel like I have that. At a deeper level I'm a, I'm a citizen of a country I've never been to, so I have this kind of esoteric connection and quite practical connection with a country I've never actually visited because of my heritage, and that's a really weird feeling.
And it's almost like I'm not ready to go there until I'm really ready to have a good sort of time there and I really, I wanna really reconcile it, mm. So I haven't, and I'm in my mid-50s. It's crazy. So- Yeah ... I mean, I understand that's the world we live in a bit too, where we are quite displaced, and there's a lot of beauty in that and richness in that, and also a little bit of heartache and grief, you know, that we- we're giving things up all the time for the other ones.
It's always really interesting, I think. Um- Yeah. Yeah, absolutely ... I felt that with Bath, and went back there recently, and it was so interesting, 'cause we lived there for a few years, and it was a really pivotal few years. Had a child there, created a community there. And it was a fascinating experience being there again.
But it was also vindicating. It also felt like we made the right decision being here, and that was a real relief A real relief. Um- Yeah ... but it's hard. We have people we love that I, you know, I hadn't seen for eight years. It was wild. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And time is flying, you know? Time is flying. Um- I know.
You know. I know. Time is flying. But I'm, I'm gonna be in Bath on Monday, so if there's anything you want me to pick up for you- Are you? ... let me know. Ah. Yes. Maybe, maybe a patch. A Bath patch. Yeah. Um- Yeah, I can get you a Bath patch. Thanks, babe. Mm. Thanks. No, I think it's... I'll tell you where to go for dinner if you want.
Cool little pub, little back street pub called The Griffin. Oh, I bet. Oh my gosh. I bet. The best. It's on the street that we lived. Look out for it. Um- Amazing ... well, I just love talking to you, Lucy. We might have to talk again. We don't have enough time to cover everything. I do, I do- Sure ... really wanna hear more at some point about when you said, "I could talk about this for hours," y- you said something about that idea of, of people trying to survive in creative industries and the income and the- Sorry, yes.
I do think- It's so challenging. Is there anything else you want to say about that while we're there, just before we go? 'Cause I was intrigued, but then I feel like we got distracted. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I, I would say that I do think it's important that before you change careers that you do some experience in that field.
Because I have had people come and, and assist me on shoots, and at the end of the day they've gone, "This really isn't for me." Like- Not for me, yeah ... they had no, they had no idea it was so physical. I mean, we- Yes ... we're kind of glorified removalists, you know? We lift furniture and move things- Oh, yes ... and, yes. And so the outcome- Like props people ... of what we do is- Yes ... very glamorous, these beautiful images. But actually- Oh my gosh ... the logistics and the hard, the hard work that goes into it physically and, and otherwise. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I suppose what I would say is if you do want to change career, don't just assume that it's gonna be what you think it's gonna be.
Mm, what it looks like. Ask someone if you can work with them for, doesn't even have to be a week, it could just be one or two- Yeah ... days in somebody's office just shadowing them or, or getting a little bit of experience somehow, because you might find that actually you don't want to change career after that and you're happy where you are.
Yeah. So I would kind of explore it before you change. Yeah. I would have some money behind you before you're going to change, because it's really important- Yes ... to have that financial safety net. Yes. Um, but I don't know. I do think we live in a time now where we, where we kind of can follow our dreams. And we should, because we've only got a short time on this planet, and I think if we can we should all love- Love our, love what we do.
And maybe not everything to do with what we do, but we need to- Mm ... love elements of what we do. And, Mm. I think we need more people to be- I think it's definitely worth giving it a shot ... agreed. And just f- you know, each of us is unique, and it's very easy to forget that each of us has this special thing that we can contribute to the world, and we get very caught up.
We get very caught up in things quite naturally, quite understandably, and then a little part of us yearns for that fully authentic expression. You know, whether it's creative or professional. And I would say that 2026, yeah, is, is about kind of the offline experience. You know, this kind of analog experience- Agreed
people, this cra- More and more ... uh, people are craving. Especially- Yeah ... women at a certain age- Yes. Agreed ... who may have s- you know, slogged at a career for many years, or that they've had children and they're kind of a bit burnt out. They wanna find themselves again. People just want- Mm ... to kind of connect with other women.
I, I'm, I'm saying women a lot because I spend my most of my time around women. Well, that's who we are. That's what we understand. Um, yeah. That's what we understand. Yeah. So I'm... Absolutely men want experiences too, but I can't- I know ... I don't really exactly know what they want. But we speak to what we know.
Yeah. Yeah. Women, I'm, I'm in my 40s, I'm a woman, I wanna spend time with other women. I wanna do lovely things that make me happy when I can afford it. Mm. And if someone's, you know, offering me an experience, that's what I wanna be part of. And I think that that's- Mm ... something that five years ago we couldn't do, 'cause we were all in- siloed in our homes.
I think we've both done that in our own way. And now we wanna do that again. Like, you're, you're doing your trips, I'm doing a, a six weekly lunch on the northern beaches just for women like us creatives, people working in wellbeing, and I just love it. I have such a lovely time. We just sit and have lunch and we talk through things, you know.
And I really look forward to it. I'm only up to about the fourth one, but it's open to everyone. It's free. It's just a, it's just we need to gather. I love that. Yeah. And there is that sort of recalibration. I call it recalibrate, 'cause I feel like we get so caught up in things, and we do spend a lot of time online, we do spend a lot of time in front of screens, and we need to recalibrate off screens and together, you know.
Mm. So I think it's awesome you're doing your trips. And Lucy, thank you so much- Thank you ... for coming on. Thank you for having me. I'll put things about you. It's a pleasure. It's always lovely. We always have lovely chats. We always have. And I'll put your details in the, in the notes and things and I just wanna say thanks for taking the time- Lovely.
Fab, thanks ... to have a chat. Right back at you. Thank you so much. Thanks, darling.
Bye. Ok
